The Secret of My Success

Let Life Show You the Miracles - Effie Cao (E037)

• Erin • Episode 37

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Episode Overview 
In this transformative conversation with Effie Cao, we explore her journey from being a high-achieving digital nomad to finding authentic peace through surrender. Effie shares how a debilitating bout with COVID forced her to confront her identity and discover the power of Buddhist practices in her darkest moments.

Key Highlights
- How a severe COVID experience became the catalyst for Effie's spiritual awakening
- The challenge of losing your identity when you can no longer "perform"
- Trading one form of performance for another in the digital nomad lifestyle
- Finding true freedom beyond the "hustle culture" mentality
- The power of Buddhist practice in facing life's challenges
- Learning to embrace the shadow self through surrender

Effie's Journey
- From corporate New York life to global digital nomad adventures
- Realizing she was still "performing" even in her new free lifestyle
- The three-month health crisis that changed everything
- How she found herself through Buddhist meditation when nothing else worked
- Moving from superficial practice to deep spiritual commitment

Practical Wisdom on Compassion
- Compassion as action rooted in bringing out the best in ourselves and others
- How to show kindness to yourself during your darkest moments
- Creating safe spaces for growth and exploration
- The balance of wisdom and kindness in true compassion
- Why coddling isn't compassion - empowering others instead

Finding Your Way
- Recognizing when you're replacing one set of limiting behaviors with another
- The courage to face your struggles with humor and self-compassion
- Understanding that spiritual growth is never "finished"
- The liberation that comes with taking responsibility for your life
- Remembering that "life is a game that is challenging - and that's exactly the point"

Effie Cao's Bio
Effie is a Chinese Mahayana Buddhist practitioner and life coach who integrates spiritual wisdom, compassion, and personal transformation into every aspect of her work. She currently lives near the Temple of the Universe, founded by Michael Singer, author of The Surrender Experiment, where she continues her spiritual practice among a community of seekers.

Before becoming a coach, Effie worked in New York in management consulting, learning & development, and corporate training within the education and tech sectors for over a decade.

After leaving the conventional corporate world, she spent about two years living and traveling around the world, deepening her focus on self-development and conscious living.

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Effie Cao:

Even though I was wonderful places like in Italy, this beautiful town, you know, I wasn't present at all. Oh my gosh, all the product ideas got manifested, and it was quite successful. But it's the intention. My whole intention, in hindsight, was doing this just to prove yet another version of if you can get this done,

Erin Currin:

hello and welcome to the secret of my success, where we explore what it means to live a fulfilling life. I am your host. Erin Currin, thank you so much for joining us today. I'm having a conversation with Effie cow. Effie is a Mahayana Buddhist practitioner, and she's a life coach who integrates spiritual wisdom, compassion and personal transformation into every aspect of her work. Before becoming a coach, Effie worked in New York in management consulting, learning and development and corporate training within the education and tech sectors. For over a decade, she and her husband decided to become digital nomads, leaving behind the conventional corporate world, and they lived and traveled for about two years, deepening her focus on self development and conscious living. Let's welcome Effie to the podcast. If you haven't already, please subscribe to our podcast, and if you enjoy the episode, give us a thumbs up. So on today's episode, I am speaking with Effie. Effie, thank you so much for coming.

Effie Cao:

Hi Erin, thank you so much for creating this space and inviting me.

Erin Currin:

You're very welcome. I'm excited that we get to play together. I know so where I normally start out our conversations is if there is some sort of a paradigm shift or a challenge or something in your life that had you really turn in a different direction, and you know, the tools that you use to kind of get yourself through that. So where would you like to start? Yeah,

Effie Cao:

sure. So immediately, a time stamp just came up on my mind When you asked this was, I think about a year and a half ago? Yeah, so when my husband and I, we were digital, no batting for a little bit for the past or a year before, and then for two years after, we moved out of New York City. And then at that time, I thought it was the peak of my life. You know, we were able to travel around the world. And really was, it was a great experience. And the tail end of that sort of, the whole traveling phase, I got COVID, so all my other symptoms were gone, and I accept coughing. So I kept coughing and coughing day and night. And initially I thought, You know what? It just, it just cough, right? It's, it's gonna heal on its own. But then months later, I still copy. I was still COVID, yeah, so that prevented me from doing a lot of my regular work. You know, I'm a coach, so I like, I have to speak to my clients, and also I do workshops and all the other stuff that, you know, require me to be fully present, ideally not coughing. So I found myself in the period of time where I couldn't do any of that. So it was the first time I had thought, whoa. Like all the doors have been shut. It's like one of those, like weird time, which now, looking back, I'm pretty sure it's one of those, like, you know, I don't want to say it's like hardcore depression, but it can feel like that. It's like the whole world narrowing in and I feel like I was like, in a place where there was no light. Because, funny enough, I because of that experience, it taught me to really think how I came to identify myself with all of the labels, like being a coach, being a facilitator, like all the professional sort of side of me and and now I couldn't do any of that. So then, who am I? So I literally sat there Jason, thinking, Who am I now like, who is Evie now that she couldn't coach and couldn't do all the things that she loves? And, you know, sometimes people say I'm really good at now, I'm just like sitting and sometimes I couldn't even lie down at night, at times, because that cost so much. Hmm, so yeah, and then, and that's when things start to turn weird enough, is when I decided mentally to embrace the darkness, rather than, Oh no, I hate this. I don't want this. But it all happened. It's, it's not like a crystal clear like, light bulb moment, where it's like, you know what? I'm gonna it's, it's not like that. So at the time, nothing positive works for me. Like, you know, I being a coach, right? And we're used to, like, self coach sometimes, like, Hey, you're a coach. You should be able to, like, quickly turn this around, and what's so hard about this, none of that worked right. Like anything i co created with my clients never worked on myself. It's like, oh, look at that interesting. And then pound me on that. And there's like, family matter going on the time. So I was trying to communicate with my family members, and, of course, no one listened and like it was just, you know, life came out that way. So at that time, I think I was forced to surrender. I didn't, I don't think it's it was rather like a very

Erin Currin:

courageous,

Effie Cao:

you know, decision to embrace surrender. It's like, okay, now what I just, I don't know, let it run. It's all, you know, its own show now. So I, I just literally took the back seat. I was like, Okay, interesting. What else can happen? So just literally, like, step back and just look how things can go. And then at the time, I was also, you know, partnering with, I was a co founder of a startup with my business partner. So, you know, that's also an interesting part of not being able to fully contribute. And that also adds to another mental kind of stress for me. But luckily, my business partners then, and they, they are, they were so loving and kind, and they were like, just take all the time you need. But then, of course, for me, someone who's like, so trench trenched in this mindset of like, Oh no, you have to, like, there's never like, you know, not do anything you just elite. You have to, like, be on top of every message and emails, you know that. So then I, literally, I just I, but that that was the only thing I can do, just to look at how people interact, at work, at family. And I was like, and then after a while, I realized, you know what, they seem to be fine without me. Things just went on, and all the things I thought couldn't possibly be resolved, and gets resolved beautifully. And I was like, wow, look at that. Yeah. So I think that was quite a turning point. And then, and then, at the time, I also felt so many different kinds of emotions. Like I even wrote down it's like, I am, you know, bitter, I am anger, I am this, that, this, that, and then I wrote out so many negative terms or the words, until at one point there's this light where it came up in my note, like I am all of this, like, very negative things, and then all of a sudden it shifted. It's like, I'm light, I'm love. And I was like, Look at this. So yeah, and then I don't know where I'm going with this, but I think that was quite an interesting period in my life where I really got to experiment this, no identity Effie thing, and just being able to take the back seat, and also just being very honest with myself and with this, you know, like, I don't know, just a messy concoction thing. I was looking at psyche, right? My psyche? I was like, Oh, look at her. She commit anything, but she's, she can be interesting too. Yeah. So that was quite the turning point. And after that, I think a lot of things shift. I couldn't even, like, you know, I don't even know where to begin, but, yeah, you asked the turning

Erin Currin:

Oh, that's fantastic. And there's absolutely, there's actually a lot there. So first of all, congratulations. That's amazing, because you and I did the the Accomplishment Coaching certification course together, and it's not for the faint of heart, right? Like you learn all these really powerful tools in the coaches show you how to really engage with the clients, to help them get up into their point, I give you all that. stuff so that they can create breakthroughs. And you know, I've, I've always known you as somebody who you've, you've been a powerful coach. You're really able to work with people. And to help them get to those spaces. You're, you know, Chinese national, yes, and you live in New York, and these are, you know, very go getting kinds of personalities and cultures, and then you all of a sudden go off, no matting with your husband. And you're, you're starting, I remember when you were starting that business with your partner, and it was going really well, yeah, uh, you were supporting, you know, Chinese speaking people in a coaching capacity, with a it was a podcast and a blog.

Effie Cao:

I also community. I was well over at one point, it's like, well over 500 people community service, and then we offer all sort of like personal development related events and offerings, yeah.

Erin Currin:

So it was going well,

Effie Cao:

yes, yes.

Erin Currin:

And then all of a sudden, this hits, yeah. Is that kind of how I went? Yeah? Yeah. So, um, what I'm hearing is, like you had said, also at that point you're thinking, Well, I'm just going to use the tools that I use on other people, on myself, like, why not? But it didn't work,

Effie Cao:

no.

Erin Currin:

And isn't that funny? Because we're telling people, well, this is all you need to do. And like, then it's like, Wait, what am I supposed to do? So tell me, at that time, did you have another coach that was working with you?

Effie Cao:

No, I couldn't. I couldn't speak to anyone. I don't know what coach? Yeah, no,

Erin Currin:

like, it was so bad you couldn't speak. Couldn't speak

Effie Cao:

well, like I could say a few things, but nothing like consistent, right? I could, I would just at the worst period, and that was literally, I couldn't speak, yeah, just coughing. Or as soon as I speak, I cough.

Erin Currin:

And here you are thinking, you need to push through, and the universe is going no Sit down. How long did that last for?

Effie Cao:

It last for months? Um, well, let me see, um, I would say at least three months or so. Well, I mean, not entire three months I couldn't speak. Or there was times and there was, like, this positive sign, like, oh, you know what? I think I'm, you know, because I also went to see different doctors, right? I think being the go getter personality, you really, you got the previous version of me really. Like, that's the the archetype, right? Like, yeah, and then I went to see so many different doctors, and I'd never give up. I'm like, ridiculous.

Erin Currin:

It's an obstacle push through.

Effie Cao:

Yeah, it's funny, but no, life just wouldn't give it to me. It's like, whatever. Try different doctors, try whatever, this holistic thing, that thing, oh, well, the only thing worked is my meditation and my Buddhism practice. That's when it that part of my life start to really take over. Because when I do those in my body, spirit, mind, I don't know, align, yeah, then that part doesn't require talking.

Erin Currin:

There are no mistakes in the universe, are there?

Effie Cao:

Yeah,

Erin Currin:

that's really funny, um, because it's like you what I heard you say, what I think I heard you say, was that there were things going on with the family. You know, your partner was like, no, no, no, don't worry. I got it. Everything is fine, and everybody else is like, Go, take care of you. And you're thinking like, this is me. I have to I. Who am I without this? When? When did you start learning this Buddhist practice in relation to this story?

Effie Cao:

Uh, huh, yeah. So that was actually I started three years ago in terms of, like, formally studying and practicing. But funny enough, the first, I guess, two years, right? I wasn't really, I was taking that as like a extracurricular thing. I just that, you know, it's like a thing so that I can maybe use for, you know, leverage for my clients. I still do leverage a lot of Buddhist, you know, insights and wisdom. But at the time it was, it wasn't at this, you know, forefront or center of my life. It's like background thing I occasionally do, you know, and meditation. It's trendy. It's a thing that, you know, we do.

Erin Currin:

It sounds cool.

Effie Cao:

Yeah. It's like, I very, I don't know, just, yeah, I wasn't quite that serious. It's like, I can do it, but I could. There was other more interesting things, right? I was traveling around the world. It's more exciting, creating a business, more exciting, yeah? But then yeah, and then when that happened, I was I dropped everything quickly after that period of my life, and then accept Buddhism. So now Buddhism is, like my I want to say the only thing, because I still do coach, but in terms of, I mean, it's like my guiding principle for everything I do now, yeah, so I volunteer a whole lot on the Buddhism front, to teaching, facilitating other people learning about Buddhism.

Erin Currin:

That's fascinating. Um, if, if I understand correctly, so you were in the coaches training program, and you sold everything and started digital nomad, traveling, creating this business, then you also happen to start studying Buddhism around the same time, right? Um,

Effie Cao:

yeah, a little before COVID hits. I think that's when I started,

Erin Currin:

after you started digital nomad, before you started, before COVID started? No, I think before

Effie Cao:

I started digital nomad before. Yeah, okay,

Erin Currin:

so that's fascinating, because it's I most people don't have the experience that when, when they start some sort of a practice that the the karma shifts so radically, so quickly. I don't think so, you know, like, I get curious how, like, you say, the first couple of years you were sort of dabbling with it, because it was kind of cool. That either means that you were probably your dabbling is, you know, most people's Olympic level performance, or the universe is saying, ha, she opened the door. Now we got her. Yeah, what would you think it was?

Effie Cao:

It's interesting because, honestly, because the program that I study Buddhism with is quite structured, so it kind of it can be like a school that you go to almost, right? So literally, the first two years, I was kind of like taking that structure as it's almost like an alternative to my social life. So I did that for, you know, every week, we meet twice. So it's actually, it's a quite a commitment, but in terms of So, but I was really, I was, I was so interested in all the theoretical fraud of things. But then, along with that, there's the practice side, which I dabbled I guess maybe that's the part I didn't really follow through, until the whole, you know, turning point happened. And I was like, You know what time to take all of this theoretical thing on the run, because I really needed it. Life. You know, what it is truly impermanent. Everything is impermanent. They don't change this like, Oh, now I get it. Yeah,

Erin Currin:

yeah. I find that the universe gives us exactly what lessons we need in exactly the forms that will shake us to our core. Really, yes, and I hear a couple of paths that we can go down, if you like, first of all, there's like that the high performer mindset. Because, like, I know you was a high performer. There are a lot of people who would call me a high performer, even though I would deny it to my time day, but it's something where we're just called to do our work or show up in our lives in a particular way for certain aspects of life, not necessarily for all aspects of life like for you around this health crisis, you were like, no, no, this, this will go away. I'm just going to keep working, keep pushing. What do you think? How do you think that? Like that your mindset about performance has shifted. What? What would you say? Where would you say you were before, versus now? Yeah,

Effie Cao:

that was a really good question. Um, well, so I, I would say, actually, went through a couple phases, and including a phase where I thought I wasn't surviving on that mentality anymore. But in fact. And this whole sickness happened. And then when, you know, during reflection, I was like, Oh no, that's I was actually still going with that. So let me maybe begin by why I actually decided to go on to show Nomad, because that was also a turning point. But the reason why I didn't mention that is because, compared to that later one, that one seemed like, oh, it's Oh, it's nothing. But at the time, you know, leaving New York is, was something that, you know, never thought would happen. Because at the time we, my husband and I, we lived there for nearly a decade, or over a little over a decade, so never thought that would be an option. We always just thought, you know, city people straight and straight, you know, it's like, and that's like, how our like, our community of friends and everything. But I think COVID happened, and it made us really think about, are we still, do we still want to pay all this premium and not be able to, like, travel more? I think at the time, it was more just like me, kind of thinking I want to be a rebel to the mainstream, like now that we don't have to go to work, I have this kind of, you know, flexibility, and why not take advantage of that? But then really the driving point is that now I can live a different life so that I can tell people, hey, look, I don't have to be tied down to this traditional corporate thing. So it's very much still like grabbing kind of mentality, right? Like, let me see what else I can try, so that I can show and prove to people it's different type of performance mentality. It just like, it's, it's not it's, it's not done through the traditional setting, because I write like, so when we're when I used to be the performer type of thing, it's like corporate, you know, like doing all the like I worked in consulting, so it's very much like, yes, go get it done, fix this and do that multi tasking. And I was like, thriving on that too. But then at the time, I was like, You know what? I want to show it to people that I could also live this life. By the time I tricked myself, I thought, yeah, I don't want to, you know, I did it for me. It's a self thing, self development thing, by the time. So when this whole sickness thing happened, I was like, Oh, I was still on this good old treadmill of trying to prove to other people different, you know, whatever different lifestyle I choose, I can do it even though, when we were, like, traveling around at the beginning, right, I wasn't really doing anything, because I decided to, like, you know, just take a couple months and just not doing anything and just fully enjoy. But even during that time, I wasn't able to fully enjoy at all. Because that all this time I was thinking, Oh, I could write about this. I could podcast about that. I could produce this. I could create this, like all different project ideas. So even though I was in different cities, like wonderful places, like in Italy, this beautiful town, you know, I wasn't present at all. My mind was like, already thinking about this next project. I was like, oh, have this great workshop idea. Who should I go to? Oh, my gosh, but I and, and the funny thing is, I did all of that. I like, all the product ideas got manifested in real life, um, and it was quite successful, you know what I mean? So I got clients through that way, and people like exposure. I mean, by any standards, it was like it was a good thing, it was a good strategy, if you will, right? Like traveling while still thriving. Do your creating, you know? But, um, I so there was nothing wrong about that. I want to make that clear, but it's the intention, right? So if I my whole intention in hindsight, I learned was doing this just to prove yet another version of if you can get this done, then no matter how great things can be or manifested or whatever, I was going to burn out, because that was never how I should be.

Erin Currin:

That's a super important point. Because, you know, when we're so used to being trapped in a certain cycle or a certain process, like we can take something that's pretty obvious, like, if you quit smoking, right, you're going to have to find something to do with the time that you were spending doing it with. Money that you were using to do it, and there are social connections that go along with that habit. And so, you know, a lot of people gain weight when they quit smoking, and much of it is just because they don't know what to do with their hands. They've got a lot of extra money. They're not able to hang out with the same people and and so it's like, if you're not really conscious of pulling this out and putting this in, then you pull this out thinking that you're doing a very good thing, but you're just like, you're whatever the mind was trying to hide or process with that bad habit to usually it's run from whatever the mind was trying to cover over with that bad habit is going to come out like raging, or this isn't a very quietly Fine, something else to pull into that, that hole is kind of what I've figured out 100%

Effie Cao:

I might still be in that phase. You know, now that it looks my on the surface, it might look like, Oh, look at it. Look at me. I'm, you know, we've been very different life and trying to stay very conscious and, you know, following my practice. But then there are pockets of time where I truly can't stand my own by boredom and rest, you know, like the restless and then some other habits start to see me. You know, I'm still very much in that struggle. But I guess the good thing now that is, I'm conscious of it so, and there was no, absolutely no denying of that ever. But before I deny it, right, like, and I also didn't know what that was, I was, I thought, of course, you got to do that. How come someone could just take a couple months and just simply traveling, like, What do you mean? It's like, what? Because I was so habituated, right, like into the doer, the doer mode,

Erin Currin:

culturally, that's that's also not acceptable. Who do you think you are that you get to play and relax and chill out and well, your friends are your friends are going, Oh my God, that sounds so amazing. But behind closed doors, they're going, Who the hell does she think she is? Like, like, I I could never do that. Well, you could, if you created a structure to be able to accomplish those goals. You certainly could. But it's kind of like that's another aspect when we step outside of those molds and those habits that we've created because we've created an entire community around it, then the the crabs in that bucket aren't happy. They're trying to pull you back in because they're afraid of what it would take or what they would have to confront by doing that as well.

Effie Cao:

That's pretty insightful. Yeah,

Erin Currin:

you know. And another dimension of this that I think is is really powerful to to remind people of is, you know, you've been practicing this form of Buddhism for three years, studying, learning, practicing, and I've been practicing nature and Buddhism for nearly 25 years now, and I went to a session just the other day with a practitioner. She's a massage therapist, but she also uses energetics in it, and I have had such a tremendous breakthrough in just the last couple of months with the different things that I'm doing. And I'm thinking to myself, when is this ever going to end? When am I going to stop with like, fixing like, but like, that's part of the problem, because I'm still calling it fixing, and it's really just an evolution, yeah. And it's funny because you you've been pointing to that as well, where you're thinking, Oh, well, this is it. No, that's not it. Well, now this one's it. And then after a little while, you kind of get smart, and you go, Okay, well, I know this isn't it, but it kind of feels like I want it to be it, but like then you start to smell the game for the game. It doesn't make it any easier for anybody who has no clue what we're talking about, yeah,

Effie Cao:

but I'll say yes, our ego has such strong just habits, right? Like we're just animals of habit and all this, all these things, like the practices I do, and everything is trans is trying to transcend the sort of the the nature, the animal nature, I guess, the habitual nature, is trying to you can say, like, formulate another habit so that it can beat down your old habit. But like you said, like the ego can be so smart it can be like, Oh, so now you think you can just be. Buddhist and practice this and try to defeat me. Let me use that. Because right now I can tell you like, I think I'm still I am right at another turning point, except it hasn't fully, kind of, you know, kind of showed me what it what it is, but I can feel it is that now that I've been doing my practice so religiously, you know, for a year, a little over a year now, if you're not counting the previous two years, that was kind of just like dabbling, and I became to feel comfortable with it, right? And then I find myself thinking, Oh, I wish this could last forever. How nice I could just meditate and, you know, study the scriptures and just share with people like, you know, with like minded people. I never want any of this to go away. But you know what? That's not what Buddhism taught us, right? Like, life's impermanent if we were ever trying to latch on to anything, even it sounds good meditation or anything, yeah, it's gonna come right back bite you

Erin Currin:

in your face. Yeah, it's really true, and it's a process of constantly surrendering, yeah, like you were saying earlier, and that's one of the most challenging things to I remember, I was talking with a friend a couple of years back about faith, and we were talking about the definition of faith, and this is going to be sort of my crude definition, but it really hits home for me, faith is, I don't know what the fuck is going on right now, But I know that it's going to be okay. Wow, and it's it really, when I'm when I'm in that state where I'm just confused and upset and frustrated and and in that space of I should know better. I'm a coach, I'm trained, I'm educated, I'm a professional. I'm, you know, fill in the blank with whatever adjective, title, you know, whatever makes you think that I should have my shit together. Like, at the end of the day, it's kind of like we think that our parents are more adult than they are, until we grow up and become adults and see that they're just as confused we are.

Effie Cao:

No, everyone is no. It's

Erin Currin:

like, there's this, there's this, there's this lie that we're told or that we believe when we're kids, that, Oh my gosh, they know so much. And I think it continues on to where, oh, well, the President knows, or the head of my company knows. Or, you know, this Buddhist monk really knows, or this, you know, Catholic priest and and they're all just human beings, and we're all just flying by the seat of our pants through life, doing the best that we can.

Effie Cao:

So true, we gotta appreciate that part too. Yeah, that's the I think one of the things I really valued throughout my journey of reflection through Buddhism is to, you know, have enough courage to face that part of me, the the trying part, the struggling part of the don't know what's going on, but still trying to fake it, the part and, you know, there's like somebody beside of me that I used to just try so hard to, like, like, like, you know, no one can

Erin Currin:

do this, yeah, no,

Effie Cao:

no, not that, not that side of me, like, I'm never that. And now it's like, oh, gotta have some humor, right? Like, I feel like, for this part, for anything, right? Not only not just for like, practicing, like Buddhism, spirituality and having faith, living a faithful life, even just like regular, working through every day, day to day, we don't have the humor and the sort of the tenderness to kind of like, befriend ourselves and just like, laugh a little like, Oh, that's funny. That's what you do. You're just you're so confused. You're and I don't know, I don't know what else, what other ways we can be. It ourselves Other than that, because then the other what? What are the alternatives, like trying to beat down ourselves, or trying to, like, right, like, puff up and be like, just act as if you know everything I don't know. No, thanks. Nobody wants

Erin Currin:

to be around that person. No, well, and I think that there's also, you know, one of the things that we talk about very often in Buddhism especially, is compassion. And I don't think people really get what compassion is. Is that something that maybe you'd like to talk about for a little bit?

Effie Cao:

Yeah, I love that. Well, also just kind of like disclaimer, I don't think I fully know, because I feel like that's, that's something that's, that's a living term, which I also love, because day by day, I find that I have discovered a new element inside of compassion. But I can give you sort of a working definition of where I am now. I feel like compassion, is it? It dwells in us. There's like it's in every one of us, but it's, it's only through action like action of bringing out, actively bringing out the best in everyone, including ourselves, that it gets perfected. And it will probably never gets perfected, because you will confront someone and be like, how am I gonna bring out the best that person? Or I couldn't even be myself around this for like, Who is this? But then that's also compassion. Like, be able to just notice that and be aware of like, whoa. I can't in this moment be so kind. What am I gonna do? And you know, like, that's also compassion. Is compassion for, um, for myself, just to, like, bravely admit can't, you know, this is, I can't do this. But I also find there's just so much livelihood, I don't know other words, there's just so much life about compassion. Living and compassionate life is basically never gets old. It never gets old. Um, so there are days where I don't, because usually people can associate myself included. You know, I used to associate compassion strictly with just how you deal with people, right? Like be compassionate with people. And never thought about, well, that people also include myself too. So there are when, there are days where I'm just, you know, I don't really have opportunity to talk to other people. How am I going to practice compassion? I would be like, Oh, should I go out and, like, go on the street and trying to talk to people? No, it's like, sit down, be with yourself. And you'd be amazed how much compassion you need to, you know, facing that side of self, like not being able to even stay straight for like, three minutes, and you can't help but just like, keep grabbing, you know, trying to do the next thing. But it's, it's those moments that I actually start practicing compassion for mouse, not for myself. So I would tell myself, you know, in a very gentle way, I used to not be that gentle. I'd be like, Oh, Effie, look at you. Um, now it's like, Oh, interesting, Effie, like, I can see now you're like, feeling a little restless. Um, why is that? It's what's going on. And you would just probably, we can find it very grumpy version of me, and be like, Well, I don't know. Like, who knows? I don't know. I just, I don't, I can't deal with this, whatever it is, right? I had, I have to go to that. And it would be like, Oh, that's interesting, all right. So do it? You want to, like, sit together for, I don't know, 20 minutes or so and be like, No, I don't. Well, that's okay too. You know, it's like that. It's like nurturing, like a kid or something, um, but I've done that a few times, and sometimes they can lead to, like, fruitful result where I actually didn't go with what I thought I would want to go and grab me and, like, the habitual thing. But then there are times I failed, but then if I failed, I'd be like, Okay, so this time we failed, it doesn't mean that we we we can try it again next time. So, yeah, it's a day by day thing. And then the magical part about that is, ever since I started doing that. It practicing compassion for myself, I find a lot more capacity to, you know, handle life, you know, especially like when there are people who appear to be difficult, and my, you know, usual kind of, my instinctive kind of way for that situation would just be a void. Or I'm glad that this person, you know, is not interacting with me, but now it's like, Huh, you know what? I'm curious. I want to give it a try. I want to actually go talk to this person and see what you know, what comes out. And sometimes there was great difficulty. Indeed, I was like, oh, that's exactly what I thought. But then there are times where I get surprised so much how, despite the act of just go one more step towards the direction that you thought you didn't want to go, and then you were met with glow of light like people would just be, I don't know, just show the basic goodness to you. And you know, all of a sudden you find a very difficult person also start to, like, apologize, and you know, or also be understanding and compassionate about you. I was like, wow, that's that's something that I don't think I'll never get elsewhere.

Erin Currin:

That's really beautiful. I think I love the the complexity that you bring to the conversation of compassion, because it really is, if I'm not able to have compassion for myself, how can I have compassion for others? Or, you know, if I'm not able to have compassion for others, how can I expect to have it for myself. It is really an energy, a way of being that flows both ways. Oh, yeah, and it's not like most Many people confuse compassion for letting someone off the hook for bad behavior, or for, you know, victimhood, or for any of this stuff. And it's not in Buddhism, in nature and Buddhism, at least, one of the things that we talk about is having a good friend and a good friend. Sometimes compassion is telling you that you're on the wrong path, that you're you know, your foot is nailed to the floor someplace, and it really would be better for you to look but I love how you're saying that you work with yourself, and you ask questions of yourself, and you allow yourself the space to explore what it is you're experiencing, which gives you the opportunity to maybe even fail At what you thought you wanted to do or create, and then to learn the lesson for yourself in a safe space. The compassion isn't necessarily about the action that you take or that you don't take. It's almost like you know your parents are tasked with creating a space for you to grow and to evolve and to learn, and sometimes that means really just messing things up totally. And you know, being okay with the fact that this turned out really badly, and that's not exactly what I wanted, and you tried to warn me, and you know, I'm just, I am where I am. Yeah, one of the things that I've there's an expression that I've heard ruthless compassion, which is like that mixture of both. It compassion is a really deep conversation. It's a deep subject.

Effie Cao:

Yeah, a lot of people associate compassion with the softness, right? Or, like you said, like just letting people off the hook, including yourself the gun. Just be gentle and kind and soft with everyone. Well, that can be when it gets fully manifested. That could be if that's the sort of the personality of the person who was showing compassion or whatnot, or the situation, or called to show the soft side. But I also find that, yeah, the true compassion is, is, is never. So the end, I studied Chinese Mahayana, Buddhism. So we say that compassion is something about path, right? It's working towards. And so it's true, compassion is. Is never just emotional part. It's not like, oh, I have you compassionate. It's always combined with wisdom or the highest form of intelligence. Usually it's like, when you fully wake up, right? You're like, oh, truly know what's going on, the truth, leaving in truth while helping other people. Like, that's the truest sense of compassion. Now that I'm still on my path, I'm not like truly seeing the, you know, like my sort of I'm still working on the wisdom part, practicing their meditation or other forms of practice. But I can still, I can still practice the compassion part with my sort of what I call the pure intention, the the purest intention I can have now, coupled with sort of the purest form of intuition I have, so it's never I'll give it a quick example. So yesterday, we have someone in a Buddhism class and asked a question about this sort of unfair thing that this person felt at work. And this person felt pretty strongly, but at the same time, he or this person, allowed themselves to create some space, inviting other people's point of view, which I really appreciate. I was like, whoa. If I, you know, was met with that situation, I would, I'll write to say, well, this is so fair. Somebody's, you know, has bias towards whatever, right? But in that process, so in this person reaching out and ask for people's support and opinions, I also do find there is a part of me that wants to just gently caress this person, or just be a mom time and be like, Oh, you'll be okay. Or, oh, it's Yeah. I can see how the other party is really like, not doing their part of all that. But then, but then this is sort of the wisdom part, start to come out and play, be like, Oh, hold on a moment. Is that real compassionate? So like, do you think this person needs another sort of, like, Oh, you're okay, you know? Because when you do that, you probably put yourself in like, a little, like a mothering kind of, there's like, a little uneven, right? So this person, you're not seeing them as equal with you. Um, so what i So, what I decided then, after some reflection on my own, is to a still do that, because that's, I mean, my nature is to, like, take care of people and, like, not like, straightly point out, like, oh, but you don't know there's also this part. So I did that part first, and then I also did express their you know, when this person thinks of fairness, that could also just be a socially constructed concept that's only only applied to this person, particularly this person's perspective, and yet, on the other side, it could be very much. They could think this whole thing is totally fair, because they're like, you know, going with a different set of logic, like business logic, right? So, yeah, so I, I think compassion. Sometimes it's like, find yourself like, trying to tap in, like, sometimes totally different, like, even sort of polar opposite, opposite point of view, but still be able to hold all of them and say, Hey, I do see this Part, and I see this part, and they could simultaneously be true in this time and space as things develop. But, you know, we have this principle of impermanence. It doesn't mean things cannot change. So if you want to talk about shifting perspective and still like creating a sort of a new condition for how this thing can go, and we can brainstorm on that. So yeah, and then later on, the conversation starts to, you know, shift this start to kind of shift from, you know, truly, like just trying to take care of this person's emotion, to think very productively, like, you know what's what the next steps can be, right? So I feel like it's a very creative space to for someone to practice compassion.

Erin Currin:

I That's you brought up a lot of really great points, and I think one of the most. Alien points is this idea of seeing someone's potential, like when, when you put yourself into some sort of a position of superiority, thinking that you're doing somebody a favor by mothering or teaching or enabling, essentially, is what it ends up being. You're allowing that person to continue to see themselves as less than because, probably especially in an unfair conversation, someone is thinking that someone is getting the better, and it's not them, right? Yeah, so then you doing the same thing. Could continue to reinforce that. What comes to my mind, I don't know if you're familiar with Bodhisattva, never disparaging.

Effie Cao:

Probably not that part yet. Yeah,

Erin Currin:

in nature and Buddhism, we talk very often about Bodhisattva, never disparaging, and he's one of the bodhisattvas that he he so deeply and truly believes that every single one of us have the Buddha nature that he's walking down the street and he's bowing to everyone, and people are throwing rocks at him and saying nasty things to him, and he's just he goes to the other side of the street, but he continues to bow to them, to to honor them. It's such a challenging space to stand in, because that means that even that person that looks to you to be the person who attacks or abuses or is unfair to you. It's like you still get to be compassionate with this individual, to see their divine aspect, to really reach into their soul, to connect on a level that is so vastly different, and to believe in somebody so wholeheartedly that you can listen to them, and it's not guiding as in, like I know better, but the way you were talking with yourself about going, Well, okay, I hear that. You know this is what you're thinking right now, and this is what you're feeling right now, and what would you like to do and where would you like to go, continuing to hand the reins back to that person when they keep trying to give it to you, take my power. I don't want it. I just want to lay on the couch and cry like, Well, okay, so you know, if that's what you're choosing to do right now, fantastic, but I'm still sitting here being your number one cheerleader, and we're going to get through this. It's a different kind of a space than just going, Oh, come here. It's all going to be okay. You don't have to do anything like from a Buddhist perspective, Buddhist law is very strict, but Buddhist law is also very empowering, because, like, it's you, the start, the finish, the middle, it's you. It wouldn't be in your life if it wasn't a lesson specifically designed for you. And that, I think, is one of the that's one of the biggest reasons why i i continue to practice Buddhism, because I don't, I don't want someone to try to fix it for me. I want to cultivate that level of faith to know that I've got it handled, and to get that there's a lesson in it, like what you were going through when you couldn't speak for a month, and you're trying to figure out, like, who am I and where do I go next? Yeah,

Effie Cao:

yeah. Oh, that is so beautiful. Yeah. A lot of people, myself included, right when I first learned about sort of, it's all you the karma, you know, the karmic result and everything, I was like, oh, what you're saying? All this, like, this current situation, and, you know, confronting is the result of my past doing or maybe still present, you know, active right now, doing what I deny that I

Erin Currin:

didn't order the sandwich.

Effie Cao:

No, um, I didn't ask this person to say this particular thing to offend me. Um, yeah, but yeah, I agree with 100% what you said is, once you start to truly just kind of see things from that perspective, from that lens, things actually gets really simple. Life really is not that all complex. Educated. It's just me trying to make all this like, there's me, there's that, there's Oh, this group and that person, my God, I can't stand any of that. I should just uproot again and leave this place and find my next you know, I don't know utopia that was, that was my sort of mindset. I I didn't realize that I was kind of like that. It was the next job, the next, you know, location, next travel site. So just running away from me, it's funny. It all comes down to that,

Erin Currin:

the great cosmic joke,

Effie Cao:

like, Oh, wow. Now you live in a place pretty much, like, there's, you know, the first time when we moved here. So we live right next to the Temple of universe. So the author of certain experiment, like a singer, you know, sort of established this beautiful community, right? And it's a community of seekers and spiritual seekers. And so at the beginning, I was like, Oh, look at me. I found exactly my spot, my type of Tiko, you know. And then later on, of course, and it's like, oh, things get old. It's like, oh, maybe if I go somewhere and then I will quickly catch myself. Like, here you are. Why don't we just spend a little more time and just like, take a look inside what's going on, this sort of uneasy feeling. But I got to admit it's like, there's always two sides. Is that one is to really acknowledge it's, it's ubiquitous, it's like, everywhere, like, it's hard to stay present. So I just say that it's really hard, as much, you know, as nice in my sound. It's hard, even for Buddhism, you know, practitioner like us, right? It's hard to stay present. Oh, my God. But if I take that as like, yet another thing to achieve and still like, if I can't be present, that means I failed, and then that becomes another, another trend, another rat race, whatever. Um, so, so I always just constantly remind myself, it's like, hey, it's hard. It's hard. You're up against yourself, you know, this, this, this concept that has been going on around for who knows how long. And, yeah, you're up against something really, really strong. And so sometimes just, you know, like, cut yourself loose a little bit, and then quickly come back. So one person I really love these days is Pema children. And if you know her, she's a Tibetan Buddhist nun. All shows she's so good, yeah. So she introduced this practice from her teacher, choyon trumpa Rin Bucha, which is another great Buddhist teacher who said, just in your daily life, you don't even have to sit down for like, significant amount of time to meditate. It could just be like, simply, just pause. Like anything you do, just take a pause, count to three, and then you're like, present, is that? So, yeah, so these days, I mean, I still follow very structured practice, but then I find that I my general attitude towards it is much more relaxed than when I first became when I first was like, There's no way I wake up this time I do this, and there's nothing can distract my practice. This is my holy grail thing. And now I'm not relaxed, right? And because I know there are other opportunities throughout every minute of my life, if I want to, it's like, snap my finger, 123, I'm back. And that's it. And that's so good, so refreshing. But compared to before, when I didn't know any of this, right, and we could just go on and on, right? Like, not taking a pause, or even sometimes be offended. Be like, What do you mean? Pause? Like, I live a busy life. Somebody need me. Like, I really need this computer to work right now, this meeting has to happen, and now it's like, oh, I. You know what I can take a pause. You know, I have 4 million things waiting for me to do, but I can afford through seconds, pause. So then that pause, you know, gets longer and longer and, yeah, that's what I did now. It's,

Erin Currin:

it's like a Chinese finger drop. The the more you struggle, the worse it gets. At the beginning, when we were doing the tech check for this and things were not working, it was the sound and it was this, and it was that, and the recording isn't coming through, and things aren't going right, and there was a point where we both stopped and went, maybe now is not the time, yeah. And the minute we paused and said, maybe now is not the time, I think that was when we both stepped back and relaxed, and then it

Effie Cao:

worked, yeah, it worked, yeah. That's what I mean by, like, gotta have humor towards everything. Okay, just laugh a little like, whenever I have now, whenever I find myself start to have this pissed off feeling, start to, like, grow or develop. Um, my old approach was, how dare you, you, you were a Buddhist practitioner. You can't, no way you can let this out. You can't be angry. I took the, you know, that was not the point. That's That's me interpreting it all wrong, no, but is Buddhism does not let you to repress, suppress, whatever, right? Um, but now it's like, I sense that, and I'll be I get curious. I was like, Whoa, look at this. And then I I pause and lean in. And then I find I would just be like, maybe I just laugh a little, and then I laugh, and then that energy is just like, dissipated or something. It's funny. I tried it twice now, I think maybe I just laugh a little, huh?

Erin Currin:

It's a beautiful thing, and that's actually probably a perfect place for us to wrap up our conversation out of every I mean, like fantastic conversation. It's been so much fun to talk with you. Is there any thought that you would like to leave the audience with before we wrap up?

Effie Cao:

Just laugh a little.

Erin Currin:

I think that's a fantastic place.

Effie Cao:

Laugh a little.

Erin Currin:

You never know what the real purpose of the situation is. Yesterday, I had coffee with a friend of mine that I introduced to Buddhism. I've known her for 15 years, but I introduced her to the practice of chanting. Four months ago, she's been chanting off and on and and yesterday, we're sitting in a coffee shop, and she says to me, but I just, I really don't think that this is for me, because I'm still young, too rough around the edges, and, like, really, you need to just give that up because, like, you've got to start the practice someplace. You've got to be able to laugh at yourself. And and then as we were leaving, she had mentioned something also about, well, do I believe in God if I'm practicing Buddhism and I'm like, There's nothing that says that you can't still talk to God, right? So as we're leaving, we're hugging outside of the coffee shop, and this man is walking by, and he goes, that is the most blessed hug I have ever seen. There was real love in that hug. The man was a creature. I was like, Oh, here it is, wow, wow. So, yeah, if

Effie Cao:

you give life a chance, just let it just let

Erin Currin:

it show you the miracles. Yeah, it will. Life will speak to you when you stop and listen

Effie Cao:

exactly when you stop being the door. Let life just take you

Erin Currin:

laugh.

Effie Cao:

Yeah and laugh a little

Erin Currin:

Elfie, fantastic. Thank you so much for for playing with me today, for laughing with me a little bit. It's been a lot of fun.

Effie Cao:

Yeah. Thank you, Erin. I think every time, you know, when we get together, I think there's also always laughter. I think that speaks a lot about how you you know, have such a open attitude and you know so that your light can continue shine through you and spread to other people and all the guests on your show. So I truly appreciate you. Thank you

Erin Currin:

so much, and thank you for watching or listening. Welcome to the entire episode. We really appreciate your support, and we look forward to talking with you next time. Thank you so much for tuning in to another episode of the secret of my success, where we explore what it means to live a fulfilling life. If you haven't already, please subscribe to make sure you don't miss an episode, and if you enjoyed this episode, please give us a thumbs up. You.